What We’re Doing…Eating…Saying…
Hey hey from southern California! We’re almost through our annual retreat and thought we’d give you a bit of an update.
First…what we’re doing.
We’re plotting. Oh, my goodness are we plotting. We started with Leslie’s entire 1st Black Cats book. Moved on to Janelle’s next entire Wilde book (right down to GMC, plot points, individual scenes.) Carly’s next Lucky book (just as detailed as Janelle’s. We even nailed her villain’s GMC–Goal, Motivation and Conflict for those who care.) Tomorrow is Julie’s turn, we’re hammering out her next phantom book and we expect it to take many hours, much chocolate and a whole lot of laughing and bitching. Nobody’s had to go in Time Out, though there have certainly been some loud voices and passionate disagreements. Not to mention weird conversations about stuff like Brazilian waxes and what an uncircumcised…ahem. Never mind.
What else. Hmm…we’re eating. Way too much. Carly and I start on chocolate in the morning. Janelle and Julie go for dessert at lunch. There are visits to Dairy Queen and See’s candy. And nonstop dashes to the fridge for another Diet Coke or bottled water. I’ve got two night’s worth of dinner leftovers in the refrigerator, which Carly is harassing me for keeping since they make the ice taste funny and we ALL know they’ll be in the trash can when we check out.
Griping…friends bitching. Need any more explanation than that? I thought not.
We’re also doing some more serious talking. And one thing we’ve been talking about is something everybody in Romancelandia–and writing’landia–is talking about.
Plagiarism.
I can’t imagine there’s anybody out there who hasn’t heard about the big plagiarism scandal rocking the romance world this past week. It started on www.smartbitchestrashybooks.com, got picked up by www.dearauthor.com and has since made its way into the mainstream media in a very big way. It’s distressing, it’s maddening, it’s just damned sad for all of us.
While Julie and I both got involved in some message board discussion last week, we didn’t bring it here right away. We don’t usually talk about anything heavy here–none of us wants the drama–so we didn’t bring it up on Plotmonkeys. But in talking about it in person here this week, the four of us decided it was imporant to publicly state our united opinion on this issue. We want you–our wonderful readers, friends, and Plotmonkey community members–to know exactly how we feel about it. And hopefully to help spread the message about just how insidious and ugly an assault this truly is on any creative person.
First, think about this: Three of the four of us monkeys have been plagiarized in the past.
That’s 75%.
That’s almost unfathomable. And it’s entirely unacceptable.
Plagiarism in any format–whether it’s an author swearing she’s using nonfiction books for “research” and she just forgot to credit her sources, or a fanfic site conveniently changing the names of a published story and presenting it as their own, or a desperate author stealing entire chunks of another author’s book and then selling it to an unwitting publisher–is wrong. It’s illegal, it’s immoral, it’s unethical.
There are no acceptable excuses. None.
Two of us discovered the plagiarism when we were tipped off by loyal readers paying attention. So here’s a sincere thank you, and an invitation to keep on being watchdogs, not just for us, but for any author you enjoy. If you see it–if you suspect it–point it out. Get involved. Only by dragging these ugly, dirty little secrets out in the open is the message going to get out there that stealing someone’s words is STEALING. It might not be a diamond necklace, or a credit card or a stereo, but in many ways, it’s worse. Stealing the words right out of someone’s brain is almost like a physical assault.
And we four–Carly, Janelle, Julie and I–sincerely hope you’ll join us in stepping up to fight back.
Yes the past few weeks have been filled with this topic, and it’s been rather disheartening, to say the least. I cannot imagine how it must feel to have something you’ve created taken from you without permission and used for someone else’s gain, no matter the purpose.
I’ve never been into fanfiction, now even less so. There just seems to be something so wrong with taking a story, written by someone else, and adding to it. I know some people, including authors, see nothing wrong with it, but it’s never sat well with me. (But then, I never cared for any of those legally issued take-offs of “Gone With the Wind” or “Pride & Prejudice” either). I’m with you guys - plagarism is wrong, and I don’t think there is any reason to excuse it.
Comment by Stacy ~ — January 15, 2008 @ 7:12 am
Boy do I feel out of the loop but now feel compelled to check the archieves of the above mentioned websites. I can’t believe 3 out of 4 of you were plagiarized that is just so wrong. Once you discovered it what did you do about it? Can charges be brought against these thieves? And does it make you distrusting of others?
On a lighter side, I’m glad you all are having so much fun together and are getting alot of work done too!
Comment by Tina Martinesi — January 15, 2008 @ 9:22 am
Good Morning Plotmonkeys and jungle babes,
It sounds as though your plotting vacation is going extremely well. I’m not surprised. I had the opportunity to witness your collective genius at work last year and it is an amazing thing to behold.
In regard to plagiarism, Nora Roberts referred to it as “mind rape” and that nails it perfectly. I am deeply sorry to hear that “3″ of the Plotmonkeys have been victims. That’s awful and completely unacceptable. It’s a kind of spiritual violation because the mind, soul and spirit are one.
I know nothing about FanFic so I can’t speak to that.
I do wonder about books like one that has been released recently called “March”. It is apparently the absent father’s perspective taken from Little Women. There are also several books about Mr. Darcy from Pride and Prejudice, like “Mr. Darcy’s Diary” and “Darcy and Elizabeth: Days and Nights at Pemberley” or “Mr. Darcy Presents His Bride” for instance.
Does that mean it’s okay to take a character from someone else’s book and make up a story about them? And a classic like Pride and Prejudice! Obviously the publisher (s) of these books didn’t have a problem with it. I do. It doesn’t sit well with me at all. To me, that feels like spiritual gang rape. Yuck!
Plotmonkeys, a couple of questions:
1. How would your feel if someone took a character, maybe a secondary character from one of your books and made up a story about them? Or wrote a continuation of one of your stories? Isn’t that stealing too?
2. Though I am not in a critique group but do have someone whose opinion I value greatly. When I ask her to read some of my work from time to time, she can often come up with the exact phrasing or word in a section of the story that I had been searching for in order to drive home an important point or nail an emotional response but couldn’t seem to find. If I use that phrase or word in my story, should she accuse me of plagiarism?
Hope you all have another successful day plotting,
Cher
Comment by Cher — January 15, 2008 @ 9:23 am
glad you are having fun. Okay, I am out of the loop….I have probably just had my head up my you know where. I have not seen it on the news. Sorry you have all been victims.
Random question (by the way, I am enjoying Janelle’s BAD BOYS WITH RED ROSES…whew!), do you have any recommendations for plotmonkeys’ valentine themed books (I enjoyed Christmas themed ones a couple of months ago)? I could look on your websites, but I am tired….
Comment by katie — January 15, 2008 @ 9:28 am
Glad to know I am not the only one out of the loop. I will go and check out what has been happening. I really don’t do the fanfiction thing, ao maybe that is why I haven’t heard about it.
How do you retaliate against someone who does it? Is there legal precedent for it, like there is in the music industry? Or do you just
: it out?
I am glad to hear you guys are all working so hard and not having any fun at all.
Quit reading the blog and back to work!!!
Comment by ev — January 15, 2008 @ 9:55 am
I totally feel out of the loop…will have to go look at all the sites. However, I can say this without being in the loop, plagiarism is never ok!!! I don’t know what fanfiction thing is, but sounds like it might be plagiarism too. What does happen to someone who gets caught for plagiarism? Do they have to pay fines?
Glad y’all are having such a great time plotting and being together!!!
Comment by Liza — January 15, 2008 @ 10:20 am
Hi, everyone! Lots of questions and I’m delighted that our readers are interested enough to ask! So, thank you.
I’m going to try and answer as best I can. I’m not a legal expert by any means, but the truth of the matter is that most plagiarism situations do not legally warrant any recourse. There are very high standards to meet–the offended author has to prove that he/she was financially damaged by the plagiarism against them in order to receive any financial compensation. This is very hard to prove.
There are no fines, though their clearly should be. Mostly, it is up to a publisher to act and that doesn’t always happen. Case in point, many years ago, a wonderful Temptation author, Gina Wilkins, was plagiarised against by a Kensington author. Kensington did not immediately pull the book from the shelves, even though the thievery was extensive and obvious (I read both books, so I can say that.) They didn’t, however, ever buy that author again and so far as I know, she quit publishing. That, to me, is the right reaction. This offending author never apologized to the first author, never admitted her wrongdoing, nothing. That’s unacceptable.
In the case of Janet Dailey, who stole chunks of works from Nora Roberts, Janet continues to sell many books, bought first by the publisher who doesn’t care that she’s a thief and by readers who do not know. I do not know what happened to the books that contained the offending passages. I’d like to hope they’ve all gone out of print. She never apologized to Nora, either, and her excuse of doing this out of stress and mental illness, to me, was an insult to all those with mental illness.
In the current case, which we at Plotmonkeys don’t really want to discuss in detail here, is still playing out, but we felt very strongly that we needed to say, out loud and for the world to hear, that plagiarism is wrong. End of story. No ifs, ands, or buts. For the record. So many readers don’t know about these things and they should and this is truly the only type of venue to get the word out.
Cher, you asked about your CP. I know that I write chunks for Susan when I’m editing her stuff and she writes the same for me…both of us often use this word-for-word, although we might change syntax or such in order to fit our voice (though since we’ve been writing together for 15 years, we know each other’s voices pretty well.) This is not plagiarism because we’re editing with the full knowledge that we’re writing words for someone else to use. It’s a gift…no need to steal!
As for if someone took one of my characters…well, there would be hell to pay. My response to all fanfiction (this is fiction written by fans using characters from other people’s books, movies, video games) is GET YOUR OWN DAMNED CHARACTERS. I might not be done with mine yet, thankyouverymuch. I would not be flattered.
Some authors, filmmakers, etc, authorize fan fiction–so to them, I say, go for it! More power to you. But not if if the author has expressly said NO. What sort of fan are you then?
Once books and characters become part of the public arena and the copyright has expired–as it has in the case of Pride & Prejudice, for example–the rules are less clear cut. For Gone With The Wind, that’s why the estate of Margaret Mitchell keeps putting out new books every so often…to keep the copyright they hold alive. It’s the life of the author, plus 70 years, I think. So Jane Austen is out. Margaret Mitchell, thanks to her shrewd relatives, is still in.
There’s also the case of the homage, a book that is written to pay tribute to certain characters and the parody, which are protected by law. For instance, George Lucas couldn’t sue Mel Brooks over Space Balls because it was a parody. And a funny one, too.
Anyway, that’s my opinion on certain matters and I’m glad our readers seem interested…we depend on readers to catch this stuff (that’s how mine was discovered) and I love you all for it!
Comment by Julie Leto — January 15, 2008 @ 11:33 am
Well, I also am out of the loop. But I expect that since I only visit a couple of writer’s blog sites.
I am “up in arms” on your behalf. I was younger and remember the Nora Roberts vaguely. My dad, knowing how much I read, pointed it out to me.
They say that ‘mockery is the sincerest form of flattery’, or something to that effect. Me thinks NOT.
Flattery and kind words heartfelt praise is the sincerst form of flaterry….
I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
The Plotmonkeys have much love here.
Comment by debb — January 15, 2008 @ 11:49 am
debb, you are so right! I have nothing against flattery, LOLOL! But make it your brand, which I’ll appreciate!
bTW, I was told I should be flattered by the people who stole from me…I wish I’d had your line then!
Comment by Julie Leto — January 15, 2008 @ 11:52 am
As a reader I have read many stories that were so similar that I questioned the morals of the authors. As a writer, I am overly cautious. My biggest fear would be that inadvertantly I would use something from a favored author. Thankfully the characters in my head seem to have minds of their own.
I had never heard of the problem with Janet Dailey plagarizing Nora Roberts. I love Nora’s books and since I only recently discovered Janet that could the be the reason. Needless to say I will not buy any more of her books just on principle.
I know you try to keep the Plotmonkeys lighthearted and fun, but I appreciate your bringing this to our attention. You all are wonderful writers. Have a great time plotting and we can’t wait for your books.
Comment by Patty L. — January 15, 2008 @ 12:30 pm
Hear, Hear!
I hate anyone who steals!
I write simple little ditties and had some stolen.
It broke my heart and the people that do it just don’t seem to get it.
I get it cause they are like my children.
You just can’t take them and say that you own them.
Hugs for everyone.
Comment by jeannie and zoey — January 15, 2008 @ 12:55 pm
Sheesh, three out of four. Shameful.
I’ve never understood people who can steal like that and feel good about it.
Comment by December Quinn/Stacia Kane — January 15, 2008 @ 1:46 pm
I heard about it last week but realize how big a deal the current brouhaha was until I went over to SBTB yesterday and read all of the posts.
Saddening. I thought we all learned in grade school (not even high school) that it was never okay to copy out of the book. I just had this conversation last semester with my middle schooler when I caught him doing it. His defense? That’s what the teacher told the class to do. I hope not.
I don’t condone it ever under any circumstances but I almost…I said, ALMOST…understand it in non-fiction/research works. But in commercial fiction? That makes no sense to me. Fiction is all about making up a story. I’m not saying it’s easy to do, because those of us who write know it’s not. But darn, just keep making stuff up until you get all the pieces of the puzzle to fall into place. It’s fiction so you’re not wrong even if you’re unpublishable. It’s your story.
I’ll make up mine. You make up yours.
Comment by Patricia W — January 15, 2008 @ 1:57 pm
Well, I just want to say, its nice to know that most of us here at plotmonkeys are out of the loop together…lol
Comment by Tina Martinesi — January 15, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
First of all, thanks for sharing all the fun the four of you are having & at the same time getting lots accomplished.
Looks like there are many good books in our future. 
Thanks for bringing the subject up here to makes us all aware of the problem.
Guess I have been out of the loop because I haven’t heard the big controvery about plagarism. I don’t go to many websites with other authors, Plotmonkeys, Jill Shalvis & eHarlequin are the ones I visit with great frequency. I am so sorry to hear that 3 of you 4 have had this problem, that is not acceptable. Years ago I heard about Janet Dailey which led me to stop reading her books. Occasionally I have read something that sounds a little familar but since I tend to consistently read my favorite authors I thought maybe it was because they had used similar wording before. I would absolutely feel crushed if I thought any of my favorite authors were guilty of such a crime. It seems to me there must be some unscrupulous people in the publishing world.
Keep having a great time on your Plotting retreat.
Comment by Donna M — January 15, 2008 @ 3:23 pm
Julie, in regard to your comment about my CP that’s the way I’ve always seen the critique partner relationship. Any help I get is definitely a gift to me from them and not something I stole from them.
Several years ago, I was asked to critique with someone in a local area chapter. There was an important paragraph in the story I was writing at the time that just wasn’t working and I couldn’t figure out why. She gave me a suggestion on how to fix it and it worked great. When I used her suggestion she accused me of plagiarism. Needless to say our critique partnership ended at that moment.
Hope the day is still going well for you guys,
Cher
Comment by Cher — January 15, 2008 @ 3:24 pm
Oooh, it sounds like you guys are having a great time. Yay on the plotting…which in turns makes more books. Whoohoo!!
As far as the other issue, I’m in total agreement with Julie. I will never buy another on of Janet Dailey’s books. I loved to read her books before I knew what happened. Who knows, maybe she can write really well now, but I won’t be one to support her.
Some think I’m silly about that, since one book does not make or break an author, however, this is something I will not bend on. Stealing is stealing and it is wrong anyway you look at it.
Comment by Vicki — January 15, 2008 @ 3:36 pm
I for one was taught in school how to use footnotes if anything was taken from another source
Comment by catslady — January 15, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
I found out about this through my RWA Chapter and an RWA Alert. I have to say the issue has gotten quite a bit of attention on the RWA Chapter boards. When I read the alert aloud to hubby and son, my son looked at me like I had 10 heads and said, “That’s stupid. I learned in 2nd grade you can’t do that!” Thank God, he is learning something!!
Comment by Jodie — January 15, 2008 @ 4:08 pm
Hey guys, I am glad you are all having a ball, plotting and eating and just having fun…it sounds like things are crazy, but hey work is getting done right? Well, I must say that I am completely clueless about the plagarism thing you are talking about…I didn’t realize that something was going on and I wasn’t aware of it…I do know all about it though…as a teacher, we impress upon our students that it is WRONG to plagarize any work…they must give credit where it is due…I am behind you all 100% in your fight against it…I can’t wait to see what you guys dreamed up in your next set of books…and I want details about the Brazilian wax and uncircumscized you know what…I am running out of
books to read, so the new ones need to come out right now…Janelle, I am finishing up the Wilde series and then I am done with books written by you all…can publication of your new books start next week? please…just kidding, I know there is production time and publicity…yadda yadda yadda…I will have to be patient like everyone else…Leslie, I noticed that you gave away two of your older books…those were the first two I ever read by you…Two to Tangle and Wicked and Willing…they were great…
I hope you all continue to have fun in the sun…we are supposed to be hit with another storm tomorrow (snow, sleet and rain) into Friday…
Talk to you all later…
Peace and love,
Paula R.
Comment by Paula R. — January 15, 2008 @ 4:39 pm
Going back to the critique partner… have you ever given your partner an idea, a phrase etc. that you wish you had kept for yourself? I am starting to work with a CP and am wondering how you all are able to keep it separate. Would it be ok if something another
wrote gave you an idea that you then expanded and changed until it was truly your own? An example: At a recent author meeting another author told me about her heroine dating a black man, then a few days later my mother was telling me about a dream she had about an older woman who was having her first real love affair. In my head I took both those ideas put them together and added my own GMC along with a host of other characters and situations. I consider it my own idea. Would everyone else?
I guess the current situation has me thinking about what is and isn’t stealing.
On a lighter note… I worked my way through school at See’s. Getting to eat chocolates until it came out my pores was worth wearing that awful white dress with the big black bow across my bust! Hope you’re all having fun here in So. Cal. and try to leave some See’s for the rest of us.
Comment by Beth — January 15, 2008 @ 5:10 pm
Hi guys - is the weather beautiful in CA today or what? I’m so glad you’re having a good time! I did hear about this last week and went to smartbitches to read the posts. I 100% agree with you (Leslie) and Julie! BTW- there was a Robin who commented on that blog and it wasn’t me. I hadn’t even realized plagiarism was possible in the publishing world. I’ve never read Janet Dailey and absolutely won’t now. Ever. Same for the woman now in question. Thinking about how hard it is for me to get words out, to create something that means something to me and hopefully others, and then to think that someone might steal that blood and sweat from me is wrong, wrong, wrong.
I so respect you four ladies and wish you each continued success! You guys set the bar. Thanks!
Comment by Robin — January 15, 2008 @ 5:11 pm
Hey y’all! We’re taking a break. Whew, tons of work on Julie’s phantom books–they’re gonna be great!
I’m so glad this issue is something we can talk about without the blog exploding with varying opinions. We didn’t want that…what we did want is what we got–reasonable reactions, discussion of the issue. So, thank you, and we’re glad to have been able to bring it to your attention.
Comment by Leslie — January 15, 2008 @ 5:36 pm
lol Robin…Julie and I were just talking about “our” Robin. No worries, we know ya!
Comment by Leslie — January 15, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
Beth–I can honestly say that there are moments when we’re plotting and I think, “Oh, man, that’s so cool, I wish I was gonna get to write that book!” But that’s as far as it’s ever gone.
I definitely don’t think there’s anything wrong with something sparking an idea, then something else adding on to it, then your brain percolating a bunch of things to create something entirely your own.
Comment by Leslie — January 15, 2008 @ 5:38 pm
I’ve been reading more about this recently and am outraged for all of you who’ve been plagarized–there’s no justification for it in all the world. And yes, stealing is wrong!! Grrr!
Glad you’re having a great time plotting, eating, griping, and being with friends!
Comment by Fedora — January 15, 2008 @ 6:00 pm
I don’t think I ever knew about Janet Dailey plagarizing Nora, but now that I do, I’ll never read or buy her books again(not sure I even own any, but might have gotten some at the library). Stealing is stealing be it a candy bar or someone’s writing. This is a big deal to me, not because anyone has ever stolen anything I’ve written, but because I have published writers in my family. My uncle is a poet and had someone take credit for several of his poems right when he was first being published several years ago.
Comment by Liza — January 15, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
I think Nora Roberts said it best!
Comment by Estella — January 15, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
Leslie - I’m glad the discussion has been able to go the way it has too. I have to admit this morning I read it and was a little hesitant to comment because I was just unsure. I know some discussions have gotten very heated, one person referred to the atmosphere of one blog as being “toxic” and I was so afraid of commenting and setting someone else off. I’m proud to be able to say I’m a Plotmonkey baby and to be “friends” with all the wonderful people here in the jungle.
Comment by Jodie — January 15, 2008 @ 6:38 pm
Thanks Leslie!
I guess you do kind of get to know a person’s voice just by blogging with them.
Hope the rest of your time together is great!
Comment by Robin — January 15, 2008 @ 8:08 pm
I guess I am out of the loop also
Glad you are hvaing fun plotting and eating
Comment by Cherylann — January 15, 2008 @ 8:28 pm
That sounds like so much fun! I’m glad it’s going so well. As for the plagiarism, I’ve had that happen to me before, and I felt so violated.
Comment by Caryn — January 15, 2008 @ 9:01 pm
MARCH is a great book. It won the Pulitzer Prize a few years back, and I met the author at BEA a few years ago and own a signed copy!
Cher, what you are talking about in situations like that is known as “intertextuality” — creating a new text that is a transformation or in some other way interacts with an existing text. If you enjoyed Bridget Jones Diary (based on the plot of Pride & Prejudice), The Wide Sargasso Sea (a retelling of Jane Eyre from the point of view of the wife), East of Eden (Genesis), or even Clueless (Emma), West Side Story (Romeo and Juliet), or My Fair Lady (Shaw’s Pygmalion, based on the myth of Pygmalion), then you have enjoyed the use of this classic and well respected literary trope.
The key here is that everyone involved is well aware of the source material, and the words are not being stolen without attribution. Plagiarism is about words.
Comment by Diana — January 16, 2008 @ 12:39 am
Like several other contributers to this thread I am a teacher and agree with everything they have said. If you are caught copying in an examination, especially a state exam all of your exam entries are null and void. It’s stealing. The same applies to course work. Much time is spent training young people to acknowledge sources of information which have been used verbatum. To pass someone elses work off as your own is to steal part of their soul. I imagine that a book becomes part of a person as they quite literally go through a pregnancy and birth with it, and so in fact it is also like stealling a child. I don’t have the talent to write but I know how I feel when I read a really well crafted book: it too becomes a little bit of me.
Going off on a tangent! I really get annoyed at Publishers who reprint books under a new title leaving readers thinking that they are buying an entirely new book.
Please forgive any spelling errors as I am dyslexic and there isn’t a spell check.
I really am sorry that you have had to go through this. Janet from the UK
Comment by Janet Seager — January 16, 2008 @ 5:46 pm
Leslie and all, I’ve enjoyed the level-headed exchange here about the plagiarism issue. Everyone should know that it’s wrong and that “we” see them and “know” what they did.
I hope you came away from your Plotting Getaway ready to make 2008 one of your best! I’m looking forward to your next book.
Comment by Laurie C. — January 17, 2008 @ 9:47 pm