Stacey (aka December Quinn, aka Stacia Kane) and I have “met” online and are of like minds on many topics, so we’ve had the pleasure of corresponding from time to time. I was thrilled to visit her website recently and find this fascinating and dare I say it, brilliant, article on publishing. I immediately thought it would be a GREAT topic for our Saturday Guest Blog series on the craft and business of writing! As the article appears in two parts on her website, I asked her to do half this weekend and the other half on February 15th. I’m also pleased to announce that her first urban fantasy book, PERSONAL DEMONS, will be released in April! Great cover, don’t you think?
So without further ado, here’s she is…talking about choosing a publisher!———————————–
A lot of writers give writing advice. I personally don’t think I’ve achieved anywhere near the kind of success that would make people yearn for my words on that subject. You won’t see me doing workshops anytime soon, anywhere—if I ever do, which I most likely wouldn’t.
But I do know rather a lot about how to spot a scam publisher or one that won’t necessarily advance your career, and since this is a topic I’ve blogged about off and on since for some time and one I care a lot about, I decided to give it a go.
Several months ago on a different site, one of my friends asked about an anthology and whether it was worth submitting to. I’m going to use that particular publisher as an example of a legitimate, if small, press.
For the bad? I’ll use the Champion Scammers, Publish America. (And they ARE a scam; they claim to not be a vanity press but have admitted in arbitration that their business model is to sell books to authors and not to the public. That’s vanity press; whether they take your money up front or after the book is printed makes no difference.)
(Note: None of my comment are absolute absolutes, as you’ll see [although there is absolutely NOTHING to recommend Publish America]. But hopefully this will be a good base.)
So first. The house I looked at for my friend was this one: Cleis Press. I chose them because they’re small, so the chances you’re heard of them are also small. Because they’re niche, which also lessens the chances you’ve heard of them. Because their site is a good example and their reputation is stellar. Plus because I was just there. (I’ll find a different publisher to use for epresses.)
Okay, so there’s the Cleis website. What is the first thing you notice on this page?
You notice that it’s a professional-looking site. The colors mesh. There are no visible typos. The layout makes sense, too. You can see a couple of book covers, with blurbs. There’s a description of what they publish, and a link to an interview with the owners.
That last is important why? Because right there, you know who runs this business. Nobody’s hiding.
Go to the bottom of the page at Cleis. See the little menu? Notice the options. “How to Order”. “For Booksellers”. “Academic Resources”. “For the Media.” “Best Sellers”. Etc.
Those options tell you something important as well: that Cleis considers its job to be selling books to the public, and to booksellers. That they have a media/publicity department. That they keep a list of their best sellers and make it available.
Okay. Now let’s look at our scam publisher, Publish America. What is the first thing you notice on their website? What’s right near the top? (Aside from the slogan “We treat authors the old-fashioned way: we pay them!” which is a red flag because, that should go without saying.)
“Submit your book!”
This is why that’s odd:
Because most legitimate publishers already have plenty of submissions. Because, in fact, most of them are drowning in submissions, even small presses, and the reason for that is people see their books in stores, decide they liked them, and decide to submit their own work. A publisher begging for submissions is a publisher with no track record, and a publisher with no track record is a publisher to be wary of.
Let’s see what other differences we can spot on the PA (Publish America) web site:
1. This website seems specifically geared towards writers wishing to submit, doesn’t it? I don’t see any spots up near the top for booksellers, for example, but I see a lot of information geared to get you to submit.
2. The PA site also has, right near the top, a list saying how great they are as a company. That’s funny; Cleis doesn’t. Neither, for that matter, do Random House, Simon & Schuster, Kensington, or Harlequin. In fact, have a look at the websites of the publishers of any random book on your shelf; I doubt they’re bragging about how many books they publish, or how many queries they get, or that they pay their authors.
Also note, not one of these publishers—even Cleis, of whom you very well might not have heard—has a link right there on the front page so you can submit your work to them. And why are they so focused on “first-time” authors and “helping” them? Why do they care if you’re a beginner or not? And why are they talking about “helping”? Their job isn’t to help you; it’s to sell books.
Note, too, that this list makes no mention of sales; only number of submissions and books published. Hmmm.
3. Let’s look at that little bottom menu now. “How to get Published”. “Get Published Free”. And some links that don’t seem to make much sense: “Children’s Book Publishers/Poetry Publishers/Christian Publishers/Fiction Publisher/Book Publishers/Directory/Resources 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8/Site Disclaimer”.
That’s kind of odd, isn’t it? None of the other publishers have a “Site Disclaimer”. None of the other publishers have what seem like generic random lists at the bottom either. And why is there nothing on the site about buying books? There’s a little button at the top for the online bookstore, but shouldn’t there be more information here about buying books, rather than submitting them? Even as you navigate through the site, there’s no link, anywhere, for Booksellers. It’s all geared towards authors.
Two more important things to note about the PA site:
1. The “About Us” link is hard to find. Take a look at it. It says “About Us”, sure—but there are, oddly enough, no names listed. Cleis Press told us who runs their company. PA? Nope. Nobody has their names listed. There aren’t any names listed on the “Contact Us” page either. (Although there is a link to “Author Testimonials”; why? Shouldn’t we be hearing from readers who love these books? Reviewers?)
2. This is a BIG one. Notice in the upper left, on the home page, there’s a box with a star that says “PA Books Become Movies!” Read what it says. A book of theirs is “stocked in a whopping 42 bookstores in 21 states”. (Note: You have to click on “Read More” and scroll down a few paragraphs to see this bit now, but the message itself hasn’t changed since I originally wrote this in June 2007.)
Um…?
42 bookstores nationwide? In 21 states—less than half of the states? Is that really something to brag about? Out of thousands of bookstores in the US, one of their titles is in 42 of them?
3. Why do they keep saying their authors are “happy”? I want to know if they’re making money and being treated professionally. I’m sure some of them are happy, but why do I care? Why do they need to tell me? Why are they trying to divert my attention from what’s really important—how many books they sell?
Let’s go back to Cleis. Let’s click a link at random. How about “About”? Publish America’s “About” page told us how they don’t charge fees, how they put their faith in new writers, how thousands of authors who wouldn’t have been published any other way managed to get published through them, which sounds rather bad, really, but oh well.
Cleis’s “About” page features a photograph of the publishers, an interview with them about their company and work, and once again, their names. Say, these ladies have a publishing history! There was no mention of that on PA’s site, but there is here. Even before starting Cleis 25 years ago, they had history in the publishing business—as writers, as publishers, as editors, even as booksellers.
You want people who know what they’re doing..
Now what haven’t we seen yet at Cleis? There are sections about ordering their books (”For Booksellers”) and a list of their books used in classes at colleges across the country (”Academic Resources”. Both of which go far to convince us this is a legitimate publisher.
But we haven’t seen submission guidelines yet? Why? Because a legitimate publisher doesn’t usually need to go begging for submissions.
Let’s try clicking on “Contact”, though, since we’ve already tried “About”.
Ah. There it is. About halfway down the page it mentions Submissions, with a separate place to click for the guidelines.
Cleis tells you very specifically in their guidelines what they publish; provocative gay/lesbian works, sexual politics, feminism, etc. (The guidelines are there, you can read them. This is already way too long and I’m nowhere near done.) They tell you how many submissions they get and of those how few they publish. They tell you what to send and where to send it.
PA, on the other hand, doesn’t really mention what they publish. It seems from looking at the site that they’re open to anything. Nor do they seem particularly choosy; in fact, under “Facts and Figures” they mention they have lower acceptance standards.
Here’s what doesn’t matter about the submission guidelines for either:
The format in which they accept submissions. Cleis accepts only email, and there’s nothing wrong with that. PA accepts both and, loathe as I am to admit it, there’s nothing wrong with that either. Some publishers accept only paper, and that’s fine too. Cleis wants MS Word or PDF attachments, PA wants MS Word or Word Perfect, which is odd as nobody in publishing really uses Word Perfect anymore but most places don’t ask for PDF either.
Their response times. Well, not really, anyway. PA claiming to be as big as they are yet still being able to reply to queries within 1-2 days should give you pause. It might not disqualify them from further investigation if everything else on their site wasn’t so full of red flags, but some publishers (and agents) do work that quickly on queries.
So what have we learned so far (tomorrow we’ll look at ebook websites and further investigation)?
We’ve learned that the website of a legitimate publisher is geared towards selling books to the public and not on getting more submissions;
We’ve learned that a legitimate publisher lets you know who runs the company and what their publishing experience is;
We’ve learned that a legitimate publisher doesn’t need to talk about how many authors it “has” or how many books it’s published;
We’ve learned that a legitimate publisher focuses on the business of publishing, and not on discussing how “happy” everybody is.
Here’s some other things to do (which are also covered in the next segment):
Google the publisher’s name. It’s that simple. See what comes up. And check more than just the first page of results. Look for warning signs, like complaints. Read message board threads that come up.
On the actual publisher site, look at the names of the authors. Have you heard of any of them? Do any of them have websites? If so, are they all free sites, the kinds with pop-up ads? That’s not an absolute sign, but most professional authors have real websites, with their own domain names. If you’re serious about your professional work, you’ll shell out the ten bucks to register a site.
Read excerpts, if any are available. Are they well written and edited? Do they compare favorably with books you’ve bought in stores?
Do a Technorati search for the publisher’s name. See what bloggers are saying about them.
Call your local bookstores. Ask if they carry books from this publisher or if they’ve ever heard of them. A bookseller’s not having heard of a publisher isn’t necessarily a bad sign (for a small press), but I know, for example, that if you call most stores and ask if they stock PA books they will say “No.” Flatly.
Last, don’t be afraid to ask around. Ask other writers. Ask librarians. Ask booksellers. Ask anybody you think might know anything. Be careful. Don’t be so eager to have your book in your hands, that you forget the object is to get it in other people’s too.
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Julie here again! Isn’t this great information? So many new writers get taken in by scam publishers and/or have unrealistic expectations from small presses (or large presses, for that matter!) that I thought it was a good idea to open a dialogue here so our readers could get an idea of what is going on in publishing nowadays. Isn’t this great information! Thanks again, Stacey!
By all reports, Julie Leto was a sweet child once, somewhat shy, preferring to play quietly in her room making up stories. However, being raised with three brothers in a loud, primarily Italian household did have its influences and Julie discovered her inner tough girl. That’s probably why most of her heroines kick serious butt. Writing sassy heroines has worked out, as she’s sold nearly thirty books to three publishers featuring strong, confident women. Julie lives in Florida with her husband, daughter, spoiled dachshund, enormous guinea pig and a wide range of relatives all within driving distance.
ANOTHER WILD WEDDING NIGHT
Hard to Hold
Love Me If You Dare
Wild For Him
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Thanks Julie!
I’ll be in and out all day if anyone has any questions or comments!
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What would you consider the average response time for a legitimate publisher if you were submitting a manuscript?
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Good Morning Plotmonkeys and everyone,
Hi, Ms. Kane and welcome to the jungle. Thank you for stopping by to educate us about publishers. All of this is extremely important to know because there are so many authors out there hungry to get published and will take almost anything that is offered. Not everyone, of course but there are many desperate to prove to themselves, their friends, their families that they can get published and will take almost any risk to make that happen.
I connected recently with a literary agency called “Writers Literary Agency, Developing The Best Writing Talent in the World” I did consider submitting to them until I had a good, long look at their web site. It seems they are major scam artists as well. At that point I put my agent search on hold–indefinitely.
I do realize that there are a lot of very good, reputable agencies out there–unfortunately none of them want to represent me. :giggle:
Have a great day everyone. Terrific cover by the way.
Cher
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Welcome Stacy! Thanks so much for the great information. It is amazing to me that these types of companies can still be out there, thriving, preying on people’s dreams. You’d think with all the bad press and all the advice, people would know better. Unfortunately, the desire to be published is often one that outweighs common sense…
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Cher – :hug2: I’m taking an online class given by Margie Lawson (I would highly recommend any of her classes to everyone, she’s awesome). The class I’m taking in Defeat your Self-Defeating Behaviors. One thing I’ve realized is that I keep putting off finishing my wip’s so that I don’t ever submit and have to hear the rejection. You should be proud that you keep trying!!
One of the class participants posted and said, “Editors and agents are paid to reject us. Give them some job security.” It was just quirky enough to resonate with me and so I’m working my fingers to the bone to get these finished up.
Which brings me to today’s topic and what an incredibly informative post!!!!
I belong to 2 RWA online chapters and the beautiful thing about that is all communication is done online. And everyone who’s published links their websites, myspace sites, book titles and publishers. It makes it very, very easy to see who is published and by which publisher.
One author sold 3 books to 2 different publishers yesterday. She posted in the “Bragging Rights” section and it was easy to follow links to those pubs to see who they were and what they were looking for. One was Harelquin Spice Briefs but the other I had never heard of. Then other authors started saying things like, “Welcome, I’m pubbed there too” and they were authors I know do well so I realized just because I hadn’t heard of that pub house didn’t make them less than…
I can’t wait to read the rest of the article about e-publishers. Thanks so much for being here and sharing this information!
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Oh – :cold: just had to throw that in. We’re under a winter storm warning and kids of all ages are bouncing off the walls. I sure hope the weather follows “what it’s supposed to do” because if not, there’s gonna be some mightly long faces around here tomorrow morning!! It only happens about once every 3-4 years so we’re definitely due.
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Cher, you know, I was thinking after reading Stacey’s article that someone probably needed to cover scam agencies, too. I think they are more prevalent than scam publishers. In fact, I know of a friend who was recently invovled with an agent who attends MANY RWA conferences (this is a big fat red flag to me…if they are listing their “appearances” at 10-15 conferences a year at their website, when exactly are they agenting??) This agent hasn’t sold anything to a publisher with major clout that couldn’t have been sold without an agent.
Agents have to sell a lot of books in order to stay in business. New agents, IMO, should have worked previously at another agency to learn the business (I know of only one exception to that) and they should only be an agent…no diddling with freelance editing or writing themselves. (Again, there are exceptions.) Hmmm…maybe I need to write my own post on this topic. It’s very complicated.
But finding an agent isn’t so hard. The first thing you should do is subscribe to Publisher’s Marketplace for a few months. You can do all sorts of Deal searches and you can see, although everyone doesn’t report, who is selling what to whom and for how much.
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What a wonderful distillation. I knew there were differences, but I hadn’t given them a lot of thought. This is really helpful.
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Hi, Stacey! Thank you for taking the time to share this! I’m a reader, but this is fascinating, and I’m so glad you’re putting this out there to protect aspiring writers from having their dreams smushed.
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Hey Bernard! Thanks for stopping by!
Response times do vary, so it’s hard to say for certain what a legitimate response time would be, but it’s always good to see what they say on their site. I wouldn’t necessarily trust a publisher that says their response time is only a few days, like PA does, because that implies they have a LOT of people just reading queries–and if their editors have that much time to read queries, how much time are they spending reading and editing? In general the bigger the house the longer the response time will be–most houses say 3-6 months. I heard back from Juno on my query in about two, if memory serves.
Eep, Cher! My heart just about stopped when you mentioned Writers Literary Agency! I’m so glad you saw through them and got away.
And keep trying. Keep querying. Look at small press publishers too. Don’t give up!
That’s very true, Leslie, and very sad. Publishing is a big, confusing business and I think a lot of people don’t realize it. I also think, sadly, that there are some who write books who don’t read them, and so aren’t familiar with even the biggest publishers.
Thanks, Jodie! I hope you do find the post on epublishers informative and helpful. Obviously I can’t comment on the publishers your online friend signed with, not knowing who they are, but it’s not always as easy as knowing other people who’ve signed with them. Like I said, I’m not aiming that comment at any particular press, so please don’t take it that way. :) But knowing people is only the first step.
Hope it warms up for you! We’re just starting our third solid week of rain here–again.
Thanks Julie! And yes, someone should do one about scam agencies, you’re right–sales to a house that requires an agent are incredibly important, as is past experience. And I agree, I’m not comfortable with agents who are writers too, although I know (as I’m sure you do) several who are still effective agents. I just personally don’t want an agent whose time is divided like that. Please write that post! I’d love to read it.
Thanks Caryn and Fedora! I’m glad you enjoyed it!
It occurred to me this morning I forgot to mention checking a publisher (or an agent for that matter) at Preditors (sp) and Editors. The website is http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/ and it’s invaluable as a resource.
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Welcome to the jungle, Stacey! It’s a pleasure having you here. And thank you for such an informative blog today!
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Wow talk about having my head spinning :scratch3: I have to be honest, without you pointing out all the negative things on the PA website, I would have thought they looked to be on the up and up
for the link to the preditors and editors website I’ve saved it for future use, and thanks for letting us know what we should be looking for.
Thanks
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Hi Stacey~ thanks for being here! The information you’ve given is very helpful and I really appreciate it. As hard as writing is, the big, wide world of publishing often seems much harder to navigate. All the information out there can be confusing and I often think I’ll just keep writing (because I love it) and worry about getting published later…much later.
Julie, I’d love to read an article on scam agencies/agents!
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The website is http://anotherealm.com/prededitors/ and it’s invaluable as a resource.
What a great site!! I’d never heard of it before but I just went over there and played around. It’s definitely going at the top of my favorites. Thanks!
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Thanks for having me, Janelle!
You’re welcome, Tina! Yes, PA is very slick–it’s easy to be fooled by their site. They seem so friendly and enthusiastic, and that’s soothing to someone new at publishing and nervous. They’ve been doing this scam for years, and they’ve fooled a lot of people.
The world of publishing can be very confusing, Robin. It takes a long time to learn (not that I claim to know everything.) That’s another reason why it’s always best to have an agent–and hopefully Julie will do a post about that!
I’m glad you liked P&E, Jodie! I’ll have a lot more links to good sites next month, but I’ll throw another one out there now, which is Writer Beware and its blog: http://www.sfwa.org/beware/
http://accrispin.blogspot.com/
Ann (AC Crispin) and Victoria (Strauss) are both multi-, multi-published authors who go way out of their way every day to help and educate writers. You can always contact one of them if you’ve been scammed or want informaton about a potential scam (for that matter, I’m no Ann or Victoria but you can always feel free to email me if you have any questions about anything. I’ll help if I can.)
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Jodie, it’s funny you should mention Margie. She is actually a very dear friend of mine. I’ve known her for years and yes, her classes are awesome! I’ve taken them all. She and her husband Tom were at the house last week for dinner. Isn’t she wonderful!
Julie, it’s interesting that you said it isn’t so hard to find an agent. I’ve been trying off and on for years with no luck, although I’ve had a few requests to see my work. I just figured my writing wasn’t good enough. I know that an author’s work has to really shine like a thousand brilliant diamonds under Klieg lights when it lands on an agent or editor’s desk to get them to even notice you among the hundreds, even thousands of ms’s they receive.
I’m still trying to reach that gold standard.
Call me stupid, but I’m not familiar with Publisher’s Marketplace only Publisher’s Weekly. I’ll check it out. Thanks :wave:
Cher
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Cher – I can imagine she would be fun friend to have!! I’m taking the DSDB class now but I’ve learned so much that I ordered the packets for Empowering Charaters’ Emotions and Deep EDITS. I didn’t want to wait until March and May to take them online and they’re just as great as DSDB. She has such a fun and informal way of presenting the information that, even though there’s a lot of it, I’m really able to grasp hold of it.
And Thanks, Stacey, for the additional websites, I’ll go check them out right now!
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Oh, Cher – I think what Julie might have meant was, it isn’t hard to find an agent, but that doesn’t mean they’re a good agent. Correct me if I’m wrong, Julie (I know you will!)
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Cher, I misspoke. Finding a good agent IS hard…but finding which ones to approach isn’t. That’s what I meant. Sorry! I never had any trouble picking which agents to submit to…finding one who fits with you is another matter altogether. Sorry! I should have been more clear!
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I don’t think a lot of people realize that Publisher’s Marketplace is the outfit that puts out Pub Lunch, which is a free service. Pub Marketplace is not free, but it’s worth an investment if you’re at that point in your career where you’re looking for publishers or agents. I love my subscription!
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This wasn’t a lecture for writers, this was a lecture on how not to be taken by any type of company. Fabulous information and great points about what legitimate businesses say verses not-so-legitimate ones. It was almost like dissecting an infomercial. The question that should be asked is “what aren’t they saying?”.
Wow, my thoughts are disjointed today!
I enjoyed your blog and will pass on the information to a friend who is trying to get her Lesbian erotica published. Thank you.
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Hi!
It seems this, like most industries, prey on the “little” people. I am not a writer, but this info makes you appreciate the effort and time that go into creating all of those WONDERFUL novels and books! I enjoyed reading this!
:tinitime:
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This is an excellent and informative articel! Really specific and detailed. Thanks so much for posting it. I will link to it from my own site so other’s can read it.
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Great information, especially for anyone who isn’t a member of a “professional” writers group of some sort to help them through the mine field of scams. It would be so easy for someone with no knowledge of the publishing industry to be taken in.
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Thanks everyone! I’m glad you all found it helpful!
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Hey, I’m curious about your thoughts on the recent phenomenon of some legitimate small publishers working hard to sell to the public online, instead of focusing on brick-and-mortar bookstores. I am starting a press this year and I spoke with one bookseller, who also ran a small press for many years, who told me that 90% of my sales as an independent press would be online. This, from a bookseller! Yet so many small presses seem to focus 90% of their energies towards the brick-and-mortar bookstore. As a small publisher going in, I have to wonder, why? Perhaps this isn’t the forum for this question but I’d be really curious to hear back from you about your thoughts on this.
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Hi, JL!
Hmm. The selling end itself isn’t really n area I know a lot about, but I do know bookstores are important. The problem with selling online is, potential readers only find your site if they’re looking for it. You’re really limiting yourself and your sales potential if you aren’t going for the brick-and-mortars as much as you can.
My books for Ellora’s Cave do well, but that’s because Ellora’s Cave has been around for so long and has an audience and a presence. Lots of epublishers start up, most fail. I fear this is the same for any small business that attempts to do the lion’s share of its sales online and doesn’t have a built-in niche market (frex if you do reprints of Civil War diaries or something, you could do well selling them online through websites that cater to Civil War enthusiasts). People want to pick up a book and flip through it; they want to sample pages from throughout, hold it, think about it. Until online bookstores can offer the full experience, I think it’s best to sign with a distributer and get your books into as many stores as you can.
But again, that’s just my opinion and the concensus among other writers I know.